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Old 06-02-2015, 09:41 AM   #37
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

@Fox
You realize the charts you are citing show food prices declining far more before GMO’s came into use right?

Roser is citing a 15 year old Monsanto funded article with no studies backing it. Basically these are opinion pieces presented as propaganda.

Neither of you really had much to say about the “Round Up is now part of corn and soy” situation. It feels like you are glazing over what could be the most important issue. Seems like you are okay with that part?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-sa...bout-research/

Even CBS misrepresents this study. Labs in Canada have duplicated this test. Though neither country is allowed to publish the results in an American journal because they would liable to Monsanto according to HR33.

Monsanto actually started a global campaign to get this study removed. The research team fell under huge pressure and still refused to withdraw it. So Monsanto went after the French publication with threats and bribes until they pulled it.

Guys I appreciate the discussion. We talked about our positions and I feel like I understand your point of view and have made my point. Regardless of what you believe we can agree to disagree. Neil likely wanted us to have this conversation.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:39 AM   #38
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

still waiting for a citation on the Monsanto act nonsense.
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:42 AM   #39
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

You do site a story which undermines the very study that anti GMO alarmists hang their hat on though, nice!
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Old 06-02-2015, 10:57 AM   #40
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...13hr933enr.pdf

So here's the text of the so called "Monsanto act" Spoiler alert, the word Monsanto doesn't appear in it. Go ahead, do a search.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:42 PM   #41
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...13hr933enr.pdf

So here's the text of the so called "Monsanto act" Spoiler alert, the word Monsanto doesn't appear in it. Go ahead, do a search.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:16 PM   #42
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

First of all, it's HR933. HR33 has to do with tax code.

It's quite simple Butch. You made the statement that this Bill only applies to Monsanto, even though Monsanto isn't even mentioned in the bill. Show me where in the bill it says it is illegal to publish an analysis that is damaging to Monsanto. Or at least site the legal premise under which that would be prosecuted. The section of the bill that concerns bio-engineering merely states that crops planted using GMO's that have already recieved FDA approval can be harvested. Their production cannot be stopped by further legal action until they are harvested. If a new challenge to the safety of a product made by Monsanto, or any other company, it can be made before the next planting season. This act prevents farmers from losing crops due to legal maneuvers made by anti GMO activists. There is nothing in this bill that singles out Monsanto for special protection and certainly no provisions for criminal punishment. You are presenting fiction and calling it fact.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:31 PM   #43
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

And here is a more sober reveiew of the carcinogenic risk of glyphosate.

https://grist.org/business-technology...-what-exactly/

And thanks for taking up my whole lunch break Butch!
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:20 PM   #44
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Originally Posted by butch View Post
Guys I appreciate the discussion. We talked about our positions and I feel like I understand your point of view and have made my point. Regardless of what you believe we can agree to disagree. Neil likely wanted us to have this conversation.
Fair enough. I have an open mind on the genetically modified food issue. I have no particular ax to grind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by butch View Post
Roser is citing a 15 year old Monsanto funded article with no studies backing it. Basically these are opinion pieces presented as propaganda.

Even CBS misrepresents this study.

Monsanto actually started a global campaign to get this study removed. The research team fell under huge pressure and still refused to withdraw it. So Monsanto went after the French publication with threats and bribes until they pulled it.
Quote:
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I understand HR933 and what it entails. I cannot compete with a mega wealthy corporation who has massive resources to cover up their corruption (their resources include the FDA which has basically become an arm of Monsanto).
What the bloody hell? How can you say you appreciate the discussion? You don't want a discussion; you don't want to look at clinical studies with an open mind. You've already made up your mind. It seems you have an ax to grind against Monsanto, or against business in general. "Threats", "propaganda", "bribes", "CBS misrepresents", "corruption", "the FDA has become an arm of Monsanto"? Those are all inflammatory accusations for which you've presented no evidence whatsoever. Moreover, as Roser has pointed out, you yourself deliberately misrepresented a piece of legislation!

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Originally Posted by butch View Post
We are not really having an intellectual debate. It has devolved into a rah rah team sport ripe with falacious spins....

It feels like you are more interested in crusading for your chosen viewpoint on this topic rather than objectively evaluating the situation.
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You haven’t made any points regarding this topic beyond tag lines and blog citations.

Your continual one liner posts (jabs) do not contain any intellectual or valid points.
You realize of course that your second point contradicts the first. Roser has merely presented and examined a piece of legislation that you yourself cited to see what it actually says. So you're correct; he therefore hasn't made any points on the topic of genetic engineering. But this means he hasn't pushed any agenda! You however have been pushing an agenda all along.

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You are not actually debating, you are mearly pushing your POV with dogma. I am trying to inform people of circumstances that exist, not slogans or corporate dogma.

In my opinion (just my opinion) people who are okay with that are under corporate and media mind control.
You don't recognize knee-jerk anti-corporate slogans as dogma too?

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Originally Posted by butch View Post
I struggle to find another explanation.
How about a disinterested, rational man's requirement that you support any assertions you make with evidence, particularly if you're accusing a government body such as the FDA of corruption?

Quote:
Originally Posted by butch View Post
I have no social agenda other than to protect my own family.
Oh groan. The old appeal to hysteria argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by butch View Post
It is illegal to publish that analysis.
If so that sounds like a patent protection law to me. They apply to everyone.

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Originally Posted by butch View Post
Monsanto is the only food corporation to which that law applies. I could go through the bill article by article and explain it to you. That would be very time consuming and I am not interested.
Nonsense. Since laws in our countries apply to all, you'd just be wasting your time. It can't be done, which is why you're not doing it.

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Originally Posted by butch View Post
The Monsanto Protection act is not applicable to all. Only to Monsanto. I like you Fox but I dont spread lies.
What then would you call it if not lying? Something called a "Monsanto Protection Act" would fly in the face of every precept of our legal system. Laws in our countries apply to ALL! Why did you deliberately mislabel the Act?

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Labs in Canada have duplicated this test. Though neither country is allowed to publish the results in an American journal because they would liable to Monsanto according to HR33.
Irrelevant. Words have no national boundaries these days. If they're published anywhere, they're published everywhere.

Now, as I say, I have an open mind on the issue. So tell me about the issue, but cut the crap. You're not going to convince the proverbial neutral observer of anything when you so very clearly come across as being anything but impartial yourself. So no dismissing studies out of hand as biased simply because they don't support your point of view.

And over and above all that includes not running down business in general. Rational self-interest is the engine of growth. Without it nations just don't prosper. Adam Smith's "invisible hand" works! Remove self-interest as a motivating factor and you get economic stagnation, e.g. the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, etc., etc. Myself I don't give a rat's ass about Monsanto specifically but I know that individual enterprise is the foundation of any successful economy. Like I say, cut out the anti-business crap and discuss the issue.

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Old 06-02-2015, 07:17 PM   #45
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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@Fox
You realize the charts you are citing show food prices declining far more before GMO’s came into use right?
I don't know when GMO's came into use but that's irrelevant. The reason declines are more obvious in the early years of the chart is because the vertical axis of the chart is arithmetic instead of geometric. If you dozed through that lesson in high school, let me explain it. It's much easier to see a 25% decline from 80 to 60 on an arithmetic chart than a 25% decline from 16 to 12. Geometric charts act to correct this flaw.

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Call me old fashioned but I like the regular old corn we have been eating for thousands of years.
That's unfortunate then because even your great grandparents weren't eating the same corn that the Iroquois were cultivating five hundred years ago. Humans have been engaged in genetic engineering for over a thousand years. That's what "breeding" is. Since Gregor Mendel in the nineteenth century, geneticists have had a better understanding of what they're doing and they've accelerated the process.

If you're opposed to genetic engineering, hopefully you don't have a beagle or any other kind of purebred dog because if you do you're going to have to put the poor fellow down. He's a threat to all life on earth with those mutant genes of his. Worse yet, hopefully you don't have any blue-eyed children. They're all a result of selective breeding since (if the anthropologists are correct) humanity migrated out of darkest Africa a hundred thousand years ago and the blue eyes are a genetic trait developed in more northerly climes. Can't allow those kind of genetic mutations you know.

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Old 06-02-2015, 08:24 PM   #46
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Fair enough. I have an open mind on the genetically modified food issue. I have no particular ax to grind.





What the bloody hell? How can you say you appreciate the discussion? You don't want a discussion; you don't want to look at clinical studies with an open mind. You've already made up your mind. It seems you have an ax to grind against Monsanto, or against business in general. "Threats", "propaganda", "bribes", "CBS misrepresents", "corruption", "the FDA has become an arm of Monsanto"? Those are all inflammatory accusations for which you've presented no evidence whatsoever. Moreover, as Roser has pointed out, you yourself deliberately misrepresented a piece of legislation!





You realize of course that your second point contradicts the first. Roser has merely presented and examined a piece of legislation that you yourself cited to see what it actually says. So you're correct, he therefore hasn't made any points on the topic of genetic engineering. But this means he hasn't pushed any agenda! You however have been pushing an agenda all along.

How about a disinterested, rational man's requirement that you support any assertions you make with evidence, particularly if you're accusing a government body such as the FDA of corruption?

I’ve edited some of my posts because things are getting kinda personal. I apologize for expressing political/social rants in this situation, in this forum. It’s a music site not a long winded politics site where we go through posts line by line and make a judgments. I apologize for any personal insults.

Monsanto’s relationship with the FDA is one thing I do think is worth pointing out before I shut up.

Relationship between Monsanto and FDA examined starting at 1:45



https://rense.com/general33/fd.htm

https://www.naturalnews.com/039315_Mo..._families.html

https://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersO.../ucm196721.htm

https://grist.org/article/2009-07-08-...to-fda-taylor/
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Old 06-02-2015, 08:26 PM   #47
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

OK I am a little out of the loop on using the new features. lol
Cheers.
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Old 06-03-2015, 08:30 AM   #48
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Use [youtube] tags now. Here's the primer:

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Originally Posted by Big Daddy Dave View Post
First issue resolved - Embedding Youtube Videos - All you need is the video code ID. EX: youtube.com/watch?v=GwWCGT0z_LU

You just need the part of the video URL after the ?v=

Like this GwWCGT0z_LU

Then you put [ youtube]GwWCGT0z_LU[/youtube ] in your post (removing the extra spaces first).
I've been going around fixing many of my old links in polls and other places.

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Old 06-03-2015, 10:46 AM   #49
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Sigh

https://rense.com/general33/fd.htm

Jeff Rense, the author of this blog is a conspiracy theorist, 911 truther and sort of holocaust denier. It's true that many FDA agents are recruted from and to the industries they regulate, it's just the way business is done and is not peculiar to Monsato. I work in an FDA regulated industry. I have worked with people who used to work in the FDA and people I have worked with have gone on to the FDA. In any case, the list is not even completely accurate.

https://www.metabunk.org/partially-d...ernment.t3664/
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:50 AM   #50
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Natural News is the bible of psuedo science gibberish. Sort of the onion for science geeks, but not funny.

https://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/who...-pseudoscience
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:12 AM   #51
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Sigh

https://rense.com/general33/fd.htm

Jeff Rense, the author of this blog is a conspiracy theorist, 911 truther and sort of holocaust denier. It's true that many FDA agents are recruted from and to the industries they regulate, it's just the way business is done and is not peculiar to Monsato. I work in an FDA regulated industry. I have worked with people who used to work in the FDA and people I have worked with have gone on to the FDA. In any case, the list is not even completely accurate.

https://www.metabunk.org/partially-d...ernment.t3664/
You attack a source’s credibility and then agree the source is correct.

Is 9/11 truther something that discredits a person? I thought truth was an honorable path.

Thanks for the update.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:27 PM   #52
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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You attack a source’s credibility and then agree the source is correct.

Is 9/11 truther something that discredits a person? I thought truth was an honorable path.

Thanks for the update.
When your version of "the truth" is that "The Jews" plotted and carried out 9/11, that's something other than honorable. I did not agree that the source was correct. Many of the connections between Monsanto and the Government are inaccurate, as inummerated in the link provided. Just pointing out that people have jobs in the FDA and FDA regulated industries at different points in their carreer is not unusual and not specific to Monsanto in anyway. But that's how these conspiracy theories work. They take a grain of truth and spin it into a giant pearl of nonsense.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:35 PM   #53
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Don't get me wrong. It is not my position that Monsanto should be trusted blindly or that new developments in agriculture shouldn't be investigated thouroughy and met with skepticism. That's what science is all about. You said earlier that nothing you said could change my mind but you're wrong. If I saw some sort of real scientific evidence that GMO's present some sort of new and major health risk, I would join you and Neil in your protest. You may have noticed, I have no problem being against things. But if all you've got is trumped up half truths from conspiracy theory mills then you're right. My mind ain't changing.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:36 PM   #54
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Don't get me wrong. It is not my position that Monsanto should be trusted blindly or that new developments in agriculture shouldn't be investigated thouroughy and met with skepticism. That's what science is all about. You said earlier that nothing you said could change my mind but you're wrong. If I saw some sort of real scientific evidence that GMO's present some sort of new and major health risk, I would join you and Neil in your protest. You may have noticed, I have no problem being against things. But if all you've got is trumped up half truths from conspiracy theory mills then you're right. My mind ain't changing.
GMO's wern't investigated thoroughly. They were given a free pass by the FDA from an FDA cheif that used to work for Monsanto.

The World Heath Organization has recently released their findings regarding gloyphosate as being unsafe. Does that convince you?

Studies done in France and Canada have show Monsanto corn to increase the occurance of tumors found in rats.

Remember, Agent Orange was said to be safe also. The government relied on Monsanto's scientists to do these studies and accepted their results as "truth".

Then scores of our soldiers developed cancer along with untold numbers of people from other countries.

That is the system you are putting your faith in with no independant scientific evidence to back it up. You take Monsanto and their lackies at thier word.

You are advocating blindly trusting Monsanto.
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