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Old 05-30-2015, 07:45 PM   #19
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Wonder why you never hear about anyone moving to Canada? I mean after Vietnam of course.
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:33 PM   #20
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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In this case I just think the science of the anti-GMO crowd is sketchy at best. Science is not the enemy.
Completely agree. Although there are some abuses (like with anything), the majority of the anti-GMO movement is fear-mongering without any scientific basis.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:02 AM   #21
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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You're going to blacklist the entire state of California as being hippy dippy? You do realize it's literally the most populous state in the entire US? A lot of people move to California, bro.
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Wonder why you never hear about anyone moving to Canada? I mean after Vietnam of course
It's either our climate or our wildlife that drives out the riff raff.





The Great White North is for only the rugged. No hippy dippy sun worshippers allowed up here.

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Old 05-31-2015, 12:20 PM   #22
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Completely agree. Although there are some abuses (like with anything), the majority of the anti-GMO movement is fear-mongering without any scientific basis.
Don’t want to get too political but the valid issues with Monsanto should be pointed out:

1. They have used their money and political influence to slowly monopolize food production in America. They have leveraged government policy to destroy the family farms through regulations and laws. This has been very destructive to our economy. ANd allowing a single corporation to control the food supply is dangerous in other ways.

2. They splice into the genetics (DNA) of corn and soy crops to spray glyphosate on them. Glyphosate is one of the active compounds in Round Up – and has been recently shown to be a carcinogen. This is poison in the plants genetic code – you cannot wash it off. You have to consume it. Over years it builds up in your body and then…?
This practice has also resulted in the creation of “super weeds” springing up in these crops which require even more poison to kill – and ravages and crops that aren’t Monsanto seeds.

3. World hunger is the same as its been for the last forty years. The lie that Monsanto is preventing world hunger is exactly that – a lie. In fact they have leveraged their product to destroy the third world farming infrastructure and now made them completely reliant on Monsanto seeds because the crops they used to grow can’t survive the super weeds. There is no going back for them – and they tried in mass to go back. They have been forced into being Monsanto customers for life. (No, Monsanto doesn’t give third world countries seeds – they sell to them). A mistake these farmers have been regretting for years now.
A further lie is that there is not enough food in the world. Heck Americans throw out (waste) 27% of our food. There is more than enough food in the world – lack of money is what makes people go hungry. Same as always. Monsanto has no sympathy for that – they still charge third world farmers at usery levels to exist.

What we have is a super massive corporation trying to create infinite growth for themselves as the expense of the masses. They already control the FDA and have special laws protecting them in America.
(it is illegal to publish a chemical study on Monsanto products – punishable by five years in jail.)

In the meantime nearly every other western nation has out right banned or heavily limited Monsanto’s products. Monsanto does nothing good for anyone except Monsanto. And Americans and our children are their great experiment. What will the cancer rates be in thirty years since you now have to eat round up every week.

Or go organic which they have lobbied for so many regulation costs on that “organic” (ie – normal) vegetables have to charge much more to make a profit.
Why is organic more expensive – because small farmers have to pay the same regulation fees to sell to the public that a giant corporation like Monsanto does. Thus small operations have to charge more. They regulate the smaller competition and "normal food" out of business.
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Old 05-31-2015, 03:11 PM   #23
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Don’t want to get too political but the valid issues with Monsanto should be pointed out:

1. They have used their money and political influence to slowly monopolize food production in America. They have leveraged government policy to destroy the family farms through regulations and laws. This has been very destructive to our economy. ANd allowing a single corporation to control the food supply is dangerous in other ways.

2. They splice glyophocate into the genetics (DNA) of corn and soy crops. Glyphosate is one of the active compounds in Round Up – and has been recently shown to be a carcinogen. This is poison in the plants genetic code – you cannot wash it off. You have to consume it. Over years it builds up in your body and then…?
This practice has also resulted in the creation of “super weeds” springing up in these crops which require even more poison to kill – and ravages and crops that aren’t Monsanto seeds.

3. World hunger is the same as its been for the last forty years. The lie that Monsanto is preventing world hunger is exactly that – a lie. In fact they have leveraged their product to destroy the third world farming infrastructure and now made them completely reliant on Monsanto seeds because the crops they used to grow can’t survive the super weeds. There is no going back for them – and they tried in mass to go back. They have been forced into being Monsanto customers for life. (No, Monsanto doesn’t give third world countries seeds – they sell to them). A mistake these farmers have been regretting for years now.
A further lie is that there is not enough food in the world. Heck Americans throw out (waste) 27% of our food. There is more than enough food in the world – lack of money is what makes people go hungry. Same as always. Monsanto has no sympathy for that – they still charge third world farmers at usery levels to exist.

What we have is a super massive corporation trying to create infinite growth for themselves as the expense of the masses. They already control the FDA and have special laws protecting them in America.
(it is illegal to publish a chemical study on Monsanto products – punishable by five years in jail.)

In the meantime nearly every other western nation has out right banned or heavily limited Monsanto’s products. Monsanto does nothing good for anyone except Monsanto. And Americans and our children are their great experiment. What will the cancer rates be in thirty years since you now have to eat round up every week.

Or go organic which they have lobbied for so many regulation costs on that “organic” (ie – normal) vegetables have to charge much more to make a profit. I agre
Why is organic more expensive – because small farmers have to pay the same regulation fees to sell to the public that a giant corporation like Monsanto does. Thus small operations have to charge more. They regulate the smaller competition and "normal food" out of business.
I agree. Monsanto sucks. It's just another huge, greedy corporation with no social or moral concerns. Screw them. I look for non-GMO products and if I have to pay an extra dollar for a bag of organic carrots I'll do it gladly.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:30 PM   #24
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

I have no particular insights on this issue or views on Monsanto, but to label "just another huge, greedy corporation with no social or moral concerns" is a non-sequitur and thus silly. A corporation has one and only one purpose - to maximize shareholders' wealth. That's not a bad thing. That's a motive of any prudent individual. Corporations aren't designed to further social or moral concerns; that's for the churches and other non-corporate organizations and individuals. I know, I know, corporations all pay lip service to these other things these days, and it annoys the hell out of me. I wish the public relations types would have the balls to say "Yes, we're all about making money and there's nothing wrong with that. That's what we were set up to do. Next question."

And criticizing them for being "huge" is really silly. It means that Monsanto has been successfully fulfilling its mandate for a good long while. It would make far more sense to criticize companies that have been less successful in fulfilling their mandate. Unless of course your motivation is tinged with envy for the success of Monsanto in which you haven't participated, though its shareholders have.

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Old 05-31-2015, 08:36 PM   #25
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

If you think corporations should have no social or moral concerns than maybe you think mankind shouldn't either.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:43 PM   #26
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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There is more than enough food in the world – lack of money is what makes people go hungry.
You're ignoring a fundamental principle of economics. Increasing the supply of anything lowers the price, which incidentally makes it more affordable to everyone.

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(it is illegal to publish a chemical study on Monsanto products – punishable by five years in jail.)
Under our system of jurisprudence, a law must apply to all. Therefore would this not be a trademark/patent issue applicable to all? If so your statement isn't just unfair, it's misleading, i.e. dishonest as all hell.

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Old 05-31-2015, 08:54 PM   #27
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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If you think corporations should have no social or moral concerns than maybe you think mankind shouldn't either.
Nonsense. The reason corporations should not have social or moral concerns is the same reason a screwdriver should not have social or moral concerns. That's not the purpose for which either was created. They are both entities, i.e. tools, created for other purposes. Check your Economics 10 or Business 10 textbook. The purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholders' wealth. It's just that simple.

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Old 05-31-2015, 09:17 PM   #28
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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Nonsense. The reason corporations should not have social or moral concerns is the same reason a screwdriver should not have social or moral concerns. That's not the purpose for which either was created. They are both entities, i.e. tools, created for other purposes. Check your Economics 10 or Business 10 textbook. The purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholders' wealth.
At any cost? That's what I call nonsense.
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:34 AM   #29
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

I'd disagree that a corporation should have no moral concerns. They should have moral concerns because if they don't, there should be consequences. For example if you let your workplace be unsafe and workers get killed, there will be lawsuits.

The problem is, the corporations control the government. What we need is campaign finance reform that blocks out the unambiguous, unignorable and massively widespread legal bribery and makes the corporations accountable to something other than themselves. I have no problem with corporations being goal-oriented. I only have a problem when they have zero checks and balances because the system itself is broken. A corporation is going to get away with anything they can get away with, and if they're only accountable to themselves then they can get away with absolutely anything they want.

Neil, I think, is fighting the wrong battle. He's picking a fight with the local dope dealer and ignoring the poppy fields in Columbia and the cartel government supplying the dealers with their product. Fighting one corporation isn't going to help. Fighting all corporations isn't going to help. We can bankrupt Starbucks today, another company 100% exactly like Starbucks would take its place by noon. To change things you have to actually fight the source, not the local crew slinging dope.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:30 PM   #30
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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I have no particular insights on this issue or views on Monsanto, but to label "just another huge, greedy corporation with no social or moral concerns" is a non-sequitur and thus silly. A corporation has one and only one purpose - to maximize shareholders' wealth. That's not a bad thing. That's a motive of any prudent individual. Corporations aren't designed to further social or moral concerns; that's for the churches and other non-corporate organizations and individuals. I know, I know, corporations all pay lip service to these other things these days, and it annoys the hell out of me. I wish the public relations types would have the balls to say "Yes, we're all about making money and there's nothing wrong with that. That's what we were set up to do. Next question."

And criticizing them for being "huge" is really silly. It means that Monsanto has been successfully fulfilling its mandate for a good long while. It would make far more sense to criticize companies that have been less successful in fulfilling their mandate. Unless of course your motivation is tinged with envy for the success of Monsanto in which you haven't participated, though its shareholders have.

It is not a question of resenting success. It’s related to resenting corruption. If you rig the game through corruption is really easy to have major success. That is why people engage in corruption.

Corruption is “moral concern” that should be challenged by all of us. This has become a major issue in modern society.

I agree ‘labels’ are dangerous when we discuss this stuff. The line “science in not the enemy” is what convinced me to post the above. I have seen that nonsense line used in the Monsanto debates a lot.

We should wonder is “what does that statement even mean”? How does it apply to this situation?
Of course science isn’t the enemy.
Science is…science.
It’s a field of study not an outcome. Why present it as the outcome? It’s how science is used which can become dangerous.
Corruption based on science is a very dangerous enemy. Greed based scientific decisions is a dangerous enemy. In this case your kids are eating round up so Monsanto can increase their share each quarter. Good thing or bad thing – time will tell.

Personally I’d like to op out of the round up experiment. Call me old fashioned but I like the regular old corn we have been eating for thousands of years. I don’t need a degree to understand eating pesticides and herbicides are not good for me. Regardless of how low the dosage is. (Monsanto assured us Agent Orange was perfectly safe too).

You present this situation like I am criticizing Monsanto for success. I am not criticizing success – I am criticizing corruption. Suggesting I could be pointing out this stuff because of jealousy is incorrect and not a discussion topic that contains any valid points about the debate.
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Old 06-01-2015, 12:52 PM   #31
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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You're ignoring a fundamental principle of economics. Increasing the supply of anything lowers the price, which incidentally makes it more affordable to everyone.



Under our system of jurisprudence, a law must apply to all. Therefore would this not be a trademark/patent issue applicable to all? If so your statement isn't just unfair, it's misleading, i.e. dishonest as all hell.

The Monsanto Protection act is not applicable to all. Only to Monsanto.

Where has food become more affordable?
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:19 PM   #32
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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(it is illegal to publish a chemical study on Monsanto products – punishable by five years in jail.)
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The Monsanto Protection act is not applicable to all. Only to Monsanto.

Citation please.
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:28 PM   #33
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Ending World Hunger. The Promise of Biotechnology and the Threat of Antiscience Zealotry
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Old 06-01-2015, 01:31 PM   #34
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Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

Can GMOs Help Feed a Hot and Hungry World?
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:26 PM   #35
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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The Monsanto Protection act is not applicable to all. Only to Monsanto.
Such an act would be an outrage if it is indeed what you're saying.

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Where has food become more affordable?
Worldwide over the decades. Let's see what charts I can find quickly:







I can't immediately find worldwide stats but I'm confident that they would show an even greater drop for two reasons:

1. Living standards have improved dramatically worldwide in the last few centuries. As living standards improve, people naturally spend a lesser percentage of their income on food. Quite simply there's only so much you can eat.

2. There has indeed been an agricultural revolution in recent decades. I've heard that with modern farming practices, just the cultivated land in Uganda would be sufficient to feed the world.

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Old 06-01-2015, 06:08 PM   #36
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Exclamation Re: Video: Neil Young Previews New Anti-Starbucks Song

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At any cost? That's what I call nonsense.
Do you not believe in a strict separation between Church and State? Well it's the same principle. While the owners and managers may of course have values of their own, the ideal corporation is valueless. Like I say, corporations are entities set up precisely to maximize their shareholders' wealth, and only that.

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I'd disagree that a corporation should have no moral concerns. They should have moral concerns because if they don't, there should be consequences. For example if you let your workplace be unsafe and workers get killed, there will be lawsuits.
Two things.

1. A corporation may be paying lip service to social concerns and indeed be behaving as if it has a social conscience. This may quite simply be long-term profit maximizing behaviour though. Yes, lawsuits are inconvenient, expensive and to be avoided. Happy employees are more productive. And finally paying lip service to social concerns is solid public relations which is good for sales.

2. The ethical concerns of management/shareholders do indeed permeate into many corporations. That's the way things work. Few things are perfect in this world, and I'd argue that this is an imperfection in executing the corporate model.

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